Chaps
I think I have got to the root of the problem of why my recently-acquired bike runs so poorly.....It is only firing on the rear cylinder (and probably the reason why the oil that I drained out smelt so much of petrol.....). Having now got the tank and infill panels off....what a PITA that was...I found that both wires from the ignition amp lead to the uppermost coil, along with the 'double' orange/white wires from the loom. The connections currently are: 'double' orange/white (negative from the owner's manual) and white/yellow on the same post on the top coil (rear cylinder), with the white/black on a separate post.
The other 2 black and yellow wires from the loom (again, negative I believe) lead to the bottom coil (which is the one for the front cylinder), but are currently wired to separate posts. My question is, which coil should each ignition amp wire feed and to which coil post, and which coils should have the orange/white and the black/yellow? If anyone has a photo, it might help the hard of thinking....me!
I'm afraid that the wiring diagram in the manual is very little help!
Regards
Pete
Having put my glasses on, I have now identified which are the positive and negative posts on the coils.....
Cheers
Pete
Hello Pete,
I just replied by email. The coils are 6v in series and both cylinders fire together on the "wasted spark" principal. The Black/Yellow wires are actually just one wire which is the series link from positive of one coil to negative of the other. Hence, it doesn't matter which coil you connect to which cylinder. Once you have checked the coils are wired correctly, the easiest test is to put a fresh plug in each cap, earth them properly and then, with the ignition turned on, flick the RUN switch on and off repeatedly. You will note that every time you switch to OFF, both plugs will spark at the same time as the coils discharge together.
Good luck,
Robert
Hi Robert
You are most kind.....all clear now....
What a fantastically supportive site!
Regards
Pete
Now running on 2 again, though the sparks are a bit weak. I have some iridium plugs on the way.
Gave me a shock by the front pot catching and then 'running away' up to 5k RPM.....tank and panels off again to note that the front carb cable run was somewhat awry....corrected that, to be faced with the same snag......carb off to find that the piston had jammed fully open....corrected that only to find it runs on 2 then drops the front cylinder at random. Plugs may cure it (I probably had a duff few in the bag), but replacement coils may be next.....
Well, I bought it to fettle!
I had some problems with my V1000's rear cylinder when I first got her... Endlessly 'dropping out' and frequently flooding...
Turned out to be a mix of cable and carb adjustment - especially the float heights...
The only problem I found with the ignition system was the ancient HT leads and caps... I fitted high quality silicone leads and haven't had a problem since.
BTW: There is a wiring schematic for the ignition system on Pg 3 of the Workshop Manual (http://www.heskethownersclub.org.uk/Pages/Spares_and_Technical.htm).
HTH
Jeff
Thanks Jeff
Leads and caps will be my next port of call; will get the carbs ultrasonically cleaned and rebuilt over the winter. Good news is that the tank is solid, though a whole load of surface rust underneath. Rubbed down and painted with rust eater until I spray the base in winter.
Think I might need to source some infill panels in the longer-term; the 'connections' with the oil filler cover are fairly ropey.
Just for future reference, are the coils off something common, or Hesketh specific?
I'm rather enjoying the challenge so far.
Cheers
Pete
Quote from: Pete D on August 02, 2015, 05:16:41 PM
Think I might need to source some infill panels in the longer-term; the 'connections' with the oil filler cover are fairly ropey.
The tank "underskirts" are held together and the oil cooler cover is held onto them by self-tapping screws and "speed-clips".
(http://www.connectorsupply.com/catalog/images/speed_clip_long_8_screw.JPG)
I HATE these things. >:(
They're prone to stripping, breaking and just coming loose and I've replaced as many of those that were fitted to my bike as possible... I've used rivnuts, nylocs and wellnuts (my personal favourites) and nothing has come adrift so far...
(http://kojaycat.co.uk/WebRoot/Namesco/Shops/950000457/4F15/B806/2F7D/A0CF/62CB/C0A8/190A/1397/m8_well_nuts.jpg)
(http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Images/WellNuts.png)
And, I also took a leaf from Mr Sleeman's book and ditched the underskirt panels. I've fitted mesh inserts and a separate bracket to secure the oil cooler cover...
Quote from: Pete D on August 02, 2015, 05:16:41 PM
Just for future reference, are the coils off something common, or Hesketh specific?
They're Lucas 17M6 coils:
(http://www.feked.com/images/thumbnails/360/270/detailed/37/IMG_7230-1000.jpg)
They can still be bought new, or uprated alternatives can be bought ('Tri-Spark' comes to mind). To be honest, they're pretty reliable and shouldn't need changing unless they've suffered physical damage or an ignition unit fault that has overheated them...
HTH
Jeff
Afraid it is the plastics that have failed (split).....those wretched fasteners for the self-tappers are fine!
Thanks for the info re the coils; I must admit that I am hoping the new plugs will do the trick.
I think I may follow you re mesh. Managed to 'set about' a fair bit of lifting plate on the frame, but having a think about how to make it perfect again.....strip and re coat...
I have time.......no intention of parting with it!
Cheers
Pete
Quote from: Pete D on August 02, 2015, 07:26:33 PM
Managed to 'set about' a fair bit of lifting plate on the frame, but having a think about how to make it perfect again.....strip and re coat...
That's a problem... You'll be aware that the frame is nickel-plated. Normal refurb work on plated metals would involve, as you say, stripping and re-plating... But the Hesketh frame is 'sifbronze (http://www.weldability-sif.com/media/sif_tips/sif_tips_06_sifbronzing_technique.pdf)' welded. I'm unsure of the actual composition of the alloy used to do this,
(I'm sure someone will jump in with the correct detail) but anecdotal evidence suggests that there is a percentage of nickel in that alloy. So, when a Hesketh frame is de-plated, some of the nickel in the bronzed joints 'leaches' out of those joints, causing them to weaken. :(
There is at least one current member who attempted re-nickeling of his frame... One of the engine mounts came off a front downtube shortly afterwards... :o
I'm not saying that refurb is impossible, only that ALL the factors should be taken into account before commencing work...
I went with a black frame... WAY more practical and much cheaper to refurb... Could be a low-cost option for you too...?
HTH
Miti
Jeff
Very interesting - no intention of risking weakening the frame. Hence, I may go for the black option - did you powder coat or spray?
Regards
Pete
Powder Coat: (More here:) (http://www.heskethownersclub.org.uk/HOCSMF/index.php?topic=162.msg654#msg654)
(http://iloapp.empressmcc.org.uk/data/_gallery/public/11/142637056136200500_resized.jpg)
Frame, swing-arm, rear axle clamps, seat mount and the mesh 'infill' plates I've made up - £150...
The place I use is ESP Powder Coating in Glasgow. The proprietor; Trevor, is a biker and has been in the business for decades... I get no bother with bearing seats that need cleaning out and he blanks off those large threads that are too big to find an old bolt to protect the threads with... :D
Best thing is to find a place near to you who has similar credentials and a recommendation is as good as 'cash in the bank'.
Hope that helps
Jeff
Hi Pete,
Wise words from Jeff on the risks of re-nickeling a frame.
Powder coating is certainly the better and safer option.
Club member Andy Smith is about 60 miles away from you in Chandlers Ford.
Andy had a frame break and did a repair followed by powder coating in silver.
I saw Andy's bike last year at Silverstone and it's a very nice finish and at first glance looks like nickel.
I assume Andy had it done locally so let me know if you want his contact details to find out who did the coating.
Dave H
Hi Dave
Yes please re the contact details. Think I will ride 'as is' for a year or so, before conducting the major strip and refurb though. The flaking is not really obvious, but I am renowned as being rather picky when it comes to bikes.....
I have yet to ride it reliably on 2 cylinders - it's rather gutless as a single! Hopefully, the Iridium plugs will have arrived by now (I work away from home).....so I'll test at the weekend. The front pot may be running a bit rich too, but I haven't had it running long enough to be sure...particularly as it spent a considerable time without firing (due to the incorrectly-wired coils) and flooded due to the stuck throttle slide....
Cheers
Pete
Still a GREAT idea to check those float heights before riding in earnest...
Jeff
Ok.....
I get it re float heights!!
Hopefully the 'how to' for Dellortos is clear on the method and specs....
Cheers ;D
Hi Pete,
I've sent you and Andy Smith an email, so Andy can let you have the powder coating info.
The Dellorto manual downloadable from this site is good.
Mick Broom produced a set of figures for the carbs for Daventry bikes as follows:-
Float height 17.5 to 18.5mm
Main Jet front carb 150 rear 155.
Needle K2 - set to middle groove.
Slide 603
Idle 60
NJ 265
Pump J 33
Needle valve 250 Float 10
Accel pump 9.5cc
These original settings are safe and on the rich side, which is why any change to float height can oil the plugs.
Quite a few owners, myself included, have gone down a size on the Main jets and backed the accelerator pumps off. That way you don't get the plumes of black smoke when you open the throttle quickly and you get 45 mpg touring two up. But as every Hesketh is different, start with the standard settings.
Dave H
Dave
Many thanks for your mail and time spent scribing the figures above. Hugely appreciated.
Cheers
Pete
Quote from: Dave Snr on August 08, 2015, 03:53:09 PM
Accel pump 9.5cc
Hmmm..? I had a go at 'calibrating' my accel pumps yesterday...
Using a 50ml syringe as my reservoir, the front carb uses 1ml per 10 'squirts'. 1ml = 1cc, so 9.5cc would be ten times as much... The damn thing would hydraulic lock...!! That can't be right, can it..?
Anyway... Each 'squirt' is a sizeable jet of fuel and I have a definite over-richness that seriously worsens when the bike is used 'energetically' on the twisties... A steady 70 mph on motorways produces 45 mpg (ish), an average of 50 mph (ish) on Scottish A-Roads reduces this to 35 mpg (at best).
So... I've used an impirical measure to reduce the amount of fuel being introduced at each squirt... I've guessed...
Some folk have completely disabled the accel pumps on their PHF's, so I figured a half-way house couldn't hurt... With the front carb off the bike and held in a soft jawed vice, I adjusted the diaphragm plunger position until the pump was producing the smallest real jet of fuel (not a dribble). Then I made a note of how many turns from 'fully seated' this was... Its 1.5 turns...
I've made a MASSIVE assumption that both carbs will react similarly to adjustment and reset the rear carb on the bike... Diaphragm adjusting screw all the way in, then 1.5 turns out and locked off...
I have a nice new DPDT relay to wire into the coils now and then we can try and start the auld bugger up again... ::)
Ho hum...
Jeff
Fingers crossed for you on the first start......
It seems there are only a few prolific posters.......I have joined, but on full 'suck'...for info.
I'll try to add value as I sharpen up.
Hi Pete... Prolific is right... ;D
I regard this forum as my personal Hesketh diary... Wasn't intended as such at the start, but best laid plans, eh..? ::)
Jeff
Out on another test ride last Sunday. Seems to have smoothed out now. Oil leaks reducing as motor gets warm in all the right places....
I seem to have lucked in.....with considerable help from you chaps. Hope to meet up soon.
Cheers
Pete
Hello Pete,
This is good news. HESKETHS are much better for riding than showing and they hate being stored for any length of time. Just a couple of hints for winter riding.
1. Apply ACF50 everywhere you can by brush.
2. Don't let a pressure washer anywhere near the bike because the wheel bearings etc. only last for a few miles if you do.
3. Regular wash-downs with nothing more than fresh water and leave all the oil leaks and chain lube in place until the salt is off the roads in the spring and you can risk using detergents.
My HESKETH's generally look awful throughout the year and especially in the winter. They are certainly no use for showing but they work!
RB
Poor old girl has dropped onto one cylinder again.....this time the new Iridium plug seems to have failed, with the spark arcing from central (cathode?) to the outer rim, and not between the arm and cathode......
I can only suspect a bad plug as it gave me a good old jolt through the plug cap on turning the beast's ignition off. Note to self - let go before switching next time!
Wonder if there was a bike-related reason for the plug failing after only a short few minutes' life...... ???
I know for a fact that IRIDIUM plugs don't work with a Jota so I never bothered trying them in a HESKETH. NGK DR8EA have proved the most reliable (and cheaper) for V1000 and Vampire.
Electrode! :-)
RB
Thank you Sir......I stand corrected!!!
Chaps
I think I am going to replace the HT leads and connectors/plug caps as a matter of course over the next few weeks; any recommendations?
TIA
Pete
PM Sent Pete
Jeff
Thabnks very much Jeff; as ever, most kind. I have also tapped you up for plug cap recommendations......!!
PM again...
Jeff
Thanks Jeff.
Leads arrived this morning; what a bargain - didn't expect the full leads and connectors for that price...
Fingers crossed that new kit sorts my cylinder dropping out.
Pete
Good news Pete;
The only snag with these silicone leads, in my experience, is resilience to damage... Their lack of it...
When I bought my V1000 it had very old leads and caps and one of the caps was a right-angled fitment - clearly not suited to the deep recesses the Hesketh plugs live in...
I bought a set of leads online (a brand no longer available) and, due to other issues with the bike, these were on, off, on, off, on - like a 'whore's drawers' (if you'll pardon my colourful metaphore...)
I ended up damaging the rear cap - I can't get my fat fingers in at the rear plug and have to use pliers - latterly, I managed to pull the coil end terminal clean off the front lead (again with pliers).
So my bike currently has the same lead as you've just ordered on the rear cyl and a copper/NGK setup at the front. I have a nice new silicone lead ready to fit (I actually took it with me to Spain, just in case) 'cos it arrived too late to fit prior to leaving and I ddn't want to break anything else while the bike was running OK...
The advantage of the silicone type leads is that they use a carbon based conductor which suppresses radio frequency interference, so additional suppression caps aren't needed.
Once you have new plugs and new leads fitted, the next thing to check are:
Security and cleanliness of the spade terminals on the ignition coils.
Security and cleanliness of the earth connection(s) on the Lucas Rita unit - It's rubber mounted and the earthing arrangements are important...
If it's the rear cyl that's 'dropping out' (like mine used to) there are other things to check, around the carbs... Give me a call (website contacts page) and we can chat about it...
Jeff
Hi Jeff
Thanks very much. It is the front pot that is dropping out. I'll check the earths/spade connectors etc before bleating for more help. Don't want to appear needy, albeit probably a bit late....
Cheers
Pete
Here's how my Rita is earthed... Dunno if this is the 'standard' arrangement..?
(http://iloapp.empressmcc.org.uk/data/_gallery/public/11/139482732570420000_resized.jpg?width=1024&height=763)
Apologies for HUGE pic. Hope it helps
And... IMHO, the quickest way to sort if a problem with a particular cyl is ignition related is to swap the leads over at the coil end. This swaps everything except the leads and plugs
Jeff
Hi Jeff
That's pretty much what mine looks like too. I have now fitted the new leads and plug, plus cleaned up the connectors all round. The Old Lady now runs smoothly, albeit I finished tinkering too late for a test ride....
Once again, thanks so much for your help; it is very much appreciated.
Pete
No problem at all Pete...
I hope you won't mind me sharing the photo you sent me..? Your bike looks great and it's always good to see how other folk are doin as well as read about it...
Pete Dixon's V1000:
(http://iloapp.heskethownersclub.org.uk/data/_gallery/public/10/144606546248448900_resized.jpg?width=1365&height=1024)
Jeff
Those new coil to plug leads and a complete fettle of all the coil wiring, plus yet another new plug appears to have done the trick. 50 miles on the Old Lady today.....and smoothing up after every mile.
The carburation is undoubtedly not spot on yet.....but she starts easily, runs exceptionally well above 2500RPM right up to the red line and only occasionally 'fluffs' between 2000 and about 2300...
The oil leaks seem to be gradually reducing too.....
Only downside........the weather is going to change for the worse.....
Standing by for the next 'spanner in the works'...but I think you might be in danger of me joining in next year with a bike I can rely upon...
Cheers to all who have been so helpful.
No worries at all about posing the pic....it will never be a show bike, but works for me.
And the chokes are properly on their seat ;-)
The iridium plugs will not be any better than a standard new plug , they are better for extending the time you need to look at them when its running correct, my bike had them in for years without inspection .
Funny story time, sold a bike to a French enthusiast who turned up in ordinary cloths , bought a cheap helmet and set off home in the middle of winter with plastic bags around his feet.
A day later he phoned from his sisters in Paris having driven through London in the cold rain to say how proud he was of the bike and wonderful it looked in the Paris street but he was expecting a little more performance.
Well after a long conversation it transpires that he did not realise the bike had two fuel taps.
Result was another phone call from the happiest French man I have ever come across. He went on to become a very good fiend and a great character with an intense love for the Hesketh bike!
Enjoy
Well......the front pot has dropped out again.....so new coil has just arrived and I will fit over the Christmas Break; hopefully, that will 'nail' it!
I wanted a bike that I could fettle, and this one is certainly 'challenging'!
Pete
Hi Pete;
Did you try swapping over the leads at the coil ends and seeing if the fault mover to the rear cyl..?
Just a thought. Have fun ;D
Jeff
I posted up some new developments on this here: (http://www.heskethownersclub.org.uk/HOCSMF/index.php?topic=220.msg1005#msg1005)
Jeff
Jeff
Noted thanks..
Cheers
Pete
Hi guys,
I think i started this spark plug issue and I think I have the solution: DENSO X24ESR-U 4101 IT WORKS (AT LEAST FOR THE TIME) !!!!
Happy riding!!!